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liri
I went looking for discussions as soon as I finished the book, so:
Jon may not be definitely dead; folks on Westeros.org pointed out that the stabbing scene echoed the Azor Ahai prophecy. And while many of the Night's Watch members turned against him, most of the wildlings were on his side, and Melisandre can probably heal like the other red priests can.
Others also pointed out that Wyman Manderly baked a couple of Freys into the pies for Ramsay Bolton's wedding, which explains his behavior about those pies. Man, I love the HELL out of Wyman Manderly. (That kind of behavior is perfectly acceptable when turned against Boltons and Freys.)
I find it interesting that people seem to think that Jon can only be the offspring of a Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing if Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar (someone noted that we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but there'd been no confirmation that she felt the same.) I don't really get that. Just because Rhaegar's been shown to be a lot more admirable than Robert saw him as being doesn't mean that he couldn't have had a dark side when it came to women. He could have abducted and raped her and the child could have been Jon. And I don't think we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna; we know about him crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty, but we've known about that for a while. He was attracted to her. That's what we know.
Interestingly, a couple of commenters think that Barristan's memories of what happened to Ashara suggest that Brandon Stark slept with her, not Ned; he considered the Stark who impregnated her, whoever it was, to have "dishonored" her, and he apparently tried to tell Dany that Ned was honorable (I didn't remember that, but I can buy it.)
I do think hints are really leaning toward Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents, though. Ned could be hoping for Cat to forgive the deception, not infidelity, in the flashback Bran saw. "Close as brothers" seems to really strongly indicate Jon is not Robb's brother by blood.
Ah, apparently the three-eyed Crow was a character from the Dunk & Egg stories.
And Ramsay's claim about Stannis is false, according to some, because Theon and Jeyne are with Asha, and therfore with Stannis's troops, and Ramsay doesn't have them. Which is valid, though I'd concluded Theon and Jeyne kept going and got the hell away from Winterfell; given how badly Stannis had been snowed in that's obviously unlikely.
I read these books for the "HOLY SHIT DID THAT JUST HAPPEN" effect, and this book delivered that a couple of times; the fact I was frustrated by all the time and words spent moving Tyrion from point A to point B doesn't negate that. But I will say that if Jon's not dead, I'm going to conclude that the "anyone can die" reputation is largely hype. He got that reputation for Ned. But as the series has gone on, it's become more and more clear that there are lead characters and antagonists, and most of the deaths (other than Ned, Robb, and Drogo) have been of antagonists: Tywin, Lysa, Robert (antagonist to Cersei,) Joffrey, Gregor Clegane. Since the Red Wedding, most of the characters you're ever in the position of rooting for are going to live. Maybe they get terribly broken (HI THEON) but they live. The carnage is for commoners.
So, despite my dismay, I really kind of hope Jon's dead, because of what it would mean about the overall story. I wanted to read an unpredictable fantasy epic where no one's safe. If Jon's safe, well... I'll still finish the series, but I'll be disappointed. It's looking more and more like Jon's due for a miraculous healing or resurrection, Aegon's a red herring, and the Jon/Dany/Tyrion ending everyone's been anticipating is still on, and being able to predict all of that is exactly NOT the reason I started reading these.
Now to go find the next episode of Tiger & Bunny, which has yet to disappoint me, or spend entire chapters talking about feces, vomit, whores and blood.
Jon may not be definitely dead; folks on Westeros.org pointed out that the stabbing scene echoed the Azor Ahai prophecy. And while many of the Night's Watch members turned against him, most of the wildlings were on his side, and Melisandre can probably heal like the other red priests can.
Others also pointed out that Wyman Manderly baked a couple of Freys into the pies for Ramsay Bolton's wedding, which explains his behavior about those pies. Man, I love the HELL out of Wyman Manderly. (That kind of behavior is perfectly acceptable when turned against Boltons and Freys.)
I find it interesting that people seem to think that Jon can only be the offspring of a Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing if Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar (someone noted that we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but there'd been no confirmation that she felt the same.) I don't really get that. Just because Rhaegar's been shown to be a lot more admirable than Robert saw him as being doesn't mean that he couldn't have had a dark side when it came to women. He could have abducted and raped her and the child could have been Jon. And I don't think we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna; we know about him crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty, but we've known about that for a while. He was attracted to her. That's what we know.
Interestingly, a couple of commenters think that Barristan's memories of what happened to Ashara suggest that Brandon Stark slept with her, not Ned; he considered the Stark who impregnated her, whoever it was, to have "dishonored" her, and he apparently tried to tell Dany that Ned was honorable (I didn't remember that, but I can buy it.)
I do think hints are really leaning toward Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents, though. Ned could be hoping for Cat to forgive the deception, not infidelity, in the flashback Bran saw. "Close as brothers" seems to really strongly indicate Jon is not Robb's brother by blood.
Ah, apparently the three-eyed Crow was a character from the Dunk & Egg stories.
And Ramsay's claim about Stannis is false, according to some, because Theon and Jeyne are with Asha, and therfore with Stannis's troops, and Ramsay doesn't have them. Which is valid, though I'd concluded Theon and Jeyne kept going and got the hell away from Winterfell; given how badly Stannis had been snowed in that's obviously unlikely.
I read these books for the "HOLY SHIT DID THAT JUST HAPPEN" effect, and this book delivered that a couple of times; the fact I was frustrated by all the time and words spent moving Tyrion from point A to point B doesn't negate that. But I will say that if Jon's not dead, I'm going to conclude that the "anyone can die" reputation is largely hype. He got that reputation for Ned. But as the series has gone on, it's become more and more clear that there are lead characters and antagonists, and most of the deaths (other than Ned, Robb, and Drogo) have been of antagonists: Tywin, Lysa, Robert (antagonist to Cersei,) Joffrey, Gregor Clegane. Since the Red Wedding, most of the characters you're ever in the position of rooting for are going to live. Maybe they get terribly broken (HI THEON) but they live. The carnage is for commoners.
So, despite my dismay, I really kind of hope Jon's dead, because of what it would mean about the overall story. I wanted to read an unpredictable fantasy epic where no one's safe. If Jon's safe, well... I'll still finish the series, but I'll be disappointed. It's looking more and more like Jon's due for a miraculous healing or resurrection, Aegon's a red herring, and the Jon/Dany/Tyrion ending everyone's been anticipating is still on, and being able to predict all of that is exactly NOT the reason I started reading these.
Now to go find the next episode of Tiger & Bunny, which has yet to disappoint me, or spend entire chapters talking about feces, vomit, whores and blood.